https://ags.myfootballnow.com/community/3/6148?page=1#37646
https://usflwfl.myfootballnow.com/community/1/6050?page=1#36890

ok OKAY. Going over both of these here's what I'd like to know. If there are actually play overuse penalties I'm very happy about that. However in my observations here is where I'm at...

In my last game we threw 5 int's in the 2nd half after none in the 1st half...
8 attempts, 2 int.. okay
5 attempts, 1 int.. eh
4 attempts, 1 int.. mmm
3 attempts, 1 int.. =(

Plays happen in football I get that. ok OKAY.. In my post, this GM is running the same 4-5 plays 10+ times in every game up to as much as 18 attempts for one play... Yes there were overuse signals in the log, it didn't matter enough to stop 8000 yards and 88 td's that season. In the dev's direct answer he eludes to the exact point setherick is making but doesn't point to numbers in the the same way.. and yes I know those number are sethericks best calculations and not in any way the exact numbers. If I'm getting penalized to the extent of throwing picks on the 4th, 5th.. 8th attempts.. and those picks are being generated by a combination of using the play to many times along with whether or not the play was scouted,... and I'm assuming he means the intelligence of the players directly involved with the play, like the QB, WR vs CB etc, that's interesting but I think it needs a better explanation.

If you mean the Intelligence rating for a player affects the rate at which he becomes familiar with a play via scouting.. and seeing it on the field..??.. Or do you mean the Intelligence rating is part of the calculation on each play to determine the results on a play by play basis.. like if a low Int CB is subbed in who is familiar with the play, but the WR he's facing has high Int.. thereby allowing a play to be used without the penalty???

Here's another way. If the guy running the play 18 times has players who all have max familiarity with the play and the defenders all have max familiarity with the play and all players involved are of equal talents... at what point does this hidden usage penalty kick in.. or about what point?? What if the defenders have no familiarity at all etc??

Also the reason for the post, I'm seeing massive amounts of interceptions in the second half coming off plays being ran 4-5 times a game when this was not the case 5 weeks ago. Things change I get it, I'd like to know when they change and what changes.
OMG help me.

Alot going on here .....

Play abuse penalties kick in at or after 3 times called. They are reserved for all offensive calls and only blitzes on defense except while in the goaline formation. Scouting the play acts like a bonus (some modifier) on top of the skill ratings penalties applied to players due to the overuse .

I am not sure exactly how intelligence would factor in besides he will have better familiarity in the first place if plays were called equally .

The verbage you see is only an indication that the overuse had a clear changing of the outcome . But I don't see that as set in stone as there is so much going on already deciding whether a dump off for 4 yards on 3 and 3 is good call. Yes without the abuse penalties that same senerio gets 10 to 15 yards . Ran 7 or 8 times a four yard gain might be just enough ....

The Hitch in particular has a bump roll (if in press) then it's speed, a route roll, then speed agian. Without help over the top speed will rule and in that qbs defense 10 calls down and he still getting 10 yard gains here and there show how sensitive that play is to speed and the abuse penalties .

They lost in the play offs and the elite wr only had to big passes (with no FS help) without those passes a 2nd year cb would have held him to 65 yards that game. So, maybe vs. Slow guys that play can be abused. I think 4.6 changes to zone will make that play even harder to abuse, but it's not much different in terms of sensitivity .

Moving on to what changed in 5 weeks . Maybe guys are catching on to the balance needed in different senerios to "exploit " the play abuse nerf which has been here since 4.1 I think..... one the culprits is the parabolic changes to certain skill ratings.

This has a greater impact now in these abused senerios , and how sensitive accuracy is or the fact qb are on a time clock from snap to throw that in combo with coverage boosts of 4.4 and 4.5 make for a mess once these penalties kick in. Then its Auto read central and if your guys still have higher ratings even after the penalties well there a gain or a pick. But for some reason I feel the blitzing penalties are stronger.

With fatigue and injuries what ratings are used on each snap late in the game are lower than when the game has started that for sure. And accuracy for qb is paramount , but there so many thing that take knocks on it. Coming cold off the bench is the most powerful penalties , then it's pressure in his face and the overuse penalties .

Like I said this goes deep I went as far in beta as to suggest the ball carry of the qb allows him to get to his progressions quicker for more efficient throws.

Interceptions are weird too. Put a wr back there and he'll act like a reciever if it thrown near him, then they all turn into deion sanders for the return . None of that happened as much till the parabolic changes were added . Which leads me to think why speed matter more now. Everyone is playing with significantly lower skill ratings by the end of the game. All varying degrees of 5 or ten points

Get to those big games and big plays seem to fizzle out. I like to stay real balanced on both sides of the ball. You got to remember 4.5 really isn't a passing code it favors the run a bit, but that doesn't mean you can't have that small window of success ....frequently as long as you have the superior players and plays used .

So if that's true, and the Dev also said this, you would expect an interception triggered by play overuse would show up in the game log, "the defense is starting to get familiar with that play" or something right? So in my 5 interceptions in the second half none of them have this in the log. So I'm to assume that running that play 5 times is not what triggered the Int.

Now these rating that seem to diminish over the course of the game, 5-10 points or something you mentioned. Are you saying a 90 speed RB is running at 85 or 80 speed by the 4th quarter etc?? Or are you saying things like 100 accuracy might drop to 90 accuracy?? Is it triggered by how many plays they are running, how many is that?

Generally speaking its the defense that fatigues first, making it easier to complete passes and run the ball, not increase your chance to throw an interception or fumble etc. A QB gets as many timeouts as he needs on every single running play, its how they rest QB's throughout the game.

Re: Play overuse, testing, and other comments
By jdavidbakr - Site Admin
3/14/2018 9:57 am
setherick wrote:
jdavidbakr wrote:
I'm pushing a tweak today to the play overuse logic so it only fires for defensive blitzing plays.


Whoo! Finally. Now, if you could make the overuse penalties 10-25x worse for blitz 2 plays that get overused. Then blitz 2 would really be a gamble. :)

Also once this is live in all the leagues, I'll make it a point to write "Advanced Defensive Game Planning - Part 4 - The All M2M".

here is one one what plays are penalized


All right ... let me remove some limits - including my logic for blocking overuse penalties for non-standard offensive personnel - now that non-blitzing plays are no longer being included in overuse penalties.

(BTW, let me know if you notice any overuse penalties on non-blitz defenses, that would mean that my logic is not properly filtering those plays out



Re: updates for 0.4.1
By jdavidbakr - Site Admin
12/13/2016 9:11 am
WarEagle wrote:
Then it's spotty at best.

I haven't seen it at all yet.


I'm assuming there is also no penalty for overuse if the message isn't displayed, since they should have the same trigger.

this talks a bit about the verbage

The penalty exists, but the message only shows up if the play had a bad result for the team doing the overuse. (It wouldn't make sense if the offense still scored a touchdown and the play-by-play said something like 'that play would have been better if the defense didn't see it coming')

I'll turn it up a bit and see if it has more of an impact in game 3


and here I had it backward. The other team gets a boost
Re: updates for 0.4.1
By jdavidbakr - Site Admin
12/13/2016 2:34 pm
Well, it's not a yardage penalty, it's an attribute boost for the other team, and it increases gradually as you call the same play multiple times. So it's kind of hard to objectively report it.


same difference and being anecdotal about the ratings being used on the play . The point
Is they are different and sometimes those differences do change the outcomes despite the play abuse penalties

And fatigue works that way ...the bigger they are and the father they run the quicker they will fatigue . I set my qbs to 99 seasons back and he get pulled late in the game...sometimes in crucial situations . To me he's a bit winded so it has to have some sort of effect on passes at those times